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Rajendra Tripathi
SSE/PW/CH,MB DIV.

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 20, 2010 4:59 pm Back to top

We are facing lot of problem when a derailment took place , track measurement is to given on just after reaching at site and joint note prepared on the basis of track measurement only ,C&W and speed measurements are not being taken into account.Higher officials do not taking pain in all respective readings.Proforma of C&W reading is not having sufficient columns to record Twist of wagon,sprig's details cambers & rigid wheel base, angularity etc.
Why track tolerances for the purpose is not mentioned in IRPWM with permissible speed,and Proforma is supporting C&W.Suitable training for measurement of diff. type of wagons to be arranged for PWay staff.
If any where relevant authentic guideline is available ,Pl give advice.
            
            
            
- Rajendra Tripathi SE/PW/RAC ... 20-03-10

ARUMUGAM KANNAN
SSE/P.WAY

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 21, 2010 9:21 am Back to top

Dear Er
please refer DERAILMENT INVESTIGATION by P.N.Doraiswamy
which is self explanatory,if u can spare time to read it will be useful u can contact to get the copy of this book to the author by email anand@vsnl.com or pnd@ktmb.my His Land line phone no 91-44-4896863 Publisher name is LEELA DORAISWAMY.Though correctionslip no 96 to IRPWM clearly specify that no safety tolerance for track parameter SE/SSE/P.way are being punished and cause for derailment track defect cannot be accepted . Enquiry committe members should be made aware of this information.
urs,
kannan,SSE/P.way/HQ/SCR
            
            
            
- ARUMUGAM KANNAN SSE/P.WAY ... 21-03-10

Anoop Kumar Agrawal
CPM/RVNL

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 23, 2010 4:12 pm Back to top

Dear Rajendra Tripathi,

(i) Initial readings/statement of all relevant site details/railway personnel should be recorded. Any deficiency observed in rolling stock should be mentioned in JOINT OBSERVATION REPORT including any broken, fallen and hanging part of a ROLLING STOCK. SSE(P. Way) or SE(P. Way) at site should also prepare a SITE SKETCH of site as per para 707 of IRPWM, he should also record particulars of locomotive, C&W and S&T equipments vide para 708 of the manual. Operating particulars like condition of loading (to see whether there is any unequal loading), break power , sudden application of brakes, sudden opening of regulators etc. should be recorded in JOINT OBSERVATION report.

(ii) As per para 702 of Accident Manual ; sub para C reads that besides track measurements, measurements of ROLLING STOCK should be taken as pert proforma in Appendix XI and XIX.

(iii) Therefore no Enquiry should commence without the observations/readings of rolling stock having been recorded.

(iv) In case some C&W readings which are not given in the PROFORMA may be recorded in Column 45 which reads as

R. Gobinath
AXEN/TMC/PALGHAT

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 24, 2010 4:15 pm Back to top

INDIAN RAILWAY ROLLING STOCK & DERAILMENT INVESTIGATION by P.N.Doraiswamy ARE THE GOOD REFERENCE BOOKS.
Further please go through some of my shared documents,which may also be be helpful .
I request IRICEN to upload the wagon maintenance manual in the "codes & Manuals" early
Further instead of dealing own cases ,please involve in analysing other'sl derailment cases also in the following hierarchy
1. rolling stock readings inthe format (available in shared documents)
2.highlighting the readings exceeding the tolerances
3.Analysing the highlighted readings geometrically (refering P.N.D sir books and the IRCEN's "investigation of derailments")
4.Analysing the highlighted readings based on stress analysis using the Rail-wheel dynamics of IRCEN's "investigation of derailments" and engineering Mechanics books and
5.Finally put in a format that how these highlighted readings become the cause for the derailment and submitt to fact finding comitee on ACKNOWLEDGEMENT.
[u:adb13f9356]As it is not a secret document ,send a copy to IRICEN and post a copy into forum for further analysis.Let us crack the problem & find the solution[/u:adb13f9356].



R.GOBINATH.


Last edited by G2866385 on Fri Mar 26, 2010 10:18 am; edited 2 times in total

MOHAMMAD BAKHSH
Rtd. Dy Chief Engineer

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 24, 2010 4:33 pm Back to top

Even agreeing to what Mr Anoop Agrawal has quoted IRPWM,the track should provide a comfortable and [b:94b974e244]safe ride [/b:94b974e244].The Indian railway track is designed as per availability of rolling stocks,rails,ballast etc.In times of accidents,prima facie is forced upon division,so ambiguity takes the place of matter of factly.Untill and unless a device is introduced to check the speed of trains at the time of accidents,PWIs will continue to face the brunt.The subtle part on the Train drivers is that they better understand the track than PWIs.Just the case ,for tracks of good quality,the critical speed lies far beyond operating speed,but with poor soil condition or suspension(train),the critical speed can be so low.In case the train speed approaches the wave propagation(driver uses his judgment on quality),the soil may experience liquefaction type of phenomenon.Do railway has an equipment to verify at site the exact reasons of accident.
            
            
            
- MOHAMMAD BAKHSH  Rtd. Dy Chief Engineer ... 24-03-10

V. B. Sood
Director (B & S)

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 25, 2010 9:36 am Back to top

1. The wagon maintenance manual has been uploaded in the members' area along with the accident manual from SECR which was available in soft copy.

2. The investigation of derailments is a 'detective' like job. Nobody can be certain as to what the exact quantum of forces, operational features etc were at the time of derailment and only circumstantial evidence of the track and wagons, partially affected by the derailment are available where the engineers are supposed to use their Sherlock Holmes-like qualities and 'deduce' the probable cause of derailment.

3. Civil engineers are known cribbers and crib at anything as if the world is conspiring against them for each and every thing. In derailments, the first people to be at site are civil engineers. What they do before the others come is anybody's guess. This is the advantage that civil engineers have. On the flip side, the track readings are taken immediately upon the removal of wagons and any reading of speedometer, wagons, etc is available after some time gap. This is a disadvantage and there is a big bias against engg in the repeating of the prima facie cause of derailments. These advantages and disadvantages are part of the deal and I do not think anybody has a suggestion as to how to address this situation or how to do things differently. Let us not crib about things that we ourselves do not know how to change.

4. Now, what shall the strategy to 'fight' the cases be? For one, training is required. The mechanical people are common for all the derailments whereas the PWIs keep changing. The experience of the PWI is quite less as compared to CWS and other people on board the ART. We shall also nominate one PWI who goes to all derailments and gets the experience. Then the individual PWIS shall also be trained by this fellow for the investigation. Secondly there must be linkages established with the people in other departments. Confrontation is not the only way to tackle other departments. A sympathetic third member in inquiry is a big asset.

5. For the people who go to the derailment site, the following action must be taken:

a. The visual evidence shall be taken note of, (if possible, sneak in a few measurements of track also) and a picture of the likely scenario at the time of accident shall be drawn up in the mind. This will help know which are the critical defects in the track. When taking the joint measurements, 'care' can then be exercised in readings for that parameter.
The 'story' of the mechanism of derailment shall be logical, all engg officials at site must work on the same theory and be consistent in their thought and action regarding the theory. Acting in unison and with confidence causes lots of nervousness to other departments and they are far less aggressive.

b. Most people lament lack of knowledge about the mechanical department. I am of the opinion that this is very important but more important is whether we are confident regarding the track defects. Despite whatever is written in the P Way manual, do we not start having self doubts about fighting that a +30 mm gauge cannot cause derailment, but 3 mm extra clearance in the axle box can? To remedy this, we must have keen understanding of the mechanism of derailment and the effect of various track defects on train movement and we must articulate that loudly at the site. Using the terms like "Nadal Eqn", "Keretzy", Y/Q ratio etc shall help establish your knowledge of the subject. If you are able to defend the track readings, the other departments can be put on backfoot when their readings are being taken. In fact, then pressure can be put on mechanical deptt to give the readings under "any other item" column as advised by Sr Prof Mr Aggarwal above.

c. There is a habit amongst engineers to fight for everything. This must be curbed. If the derailment is due to an obvious cause attributable to the engg department, it is better to own up and not un-necessarily fight. Even after fight the cause will be given to the engg but we lose our credibility and bargaining power in the next derailment also if we do not own up even the obvious cases.
            
            
            
- V. B. Sood Professor/ Bridges ... 25-03-10

Rajendra Tripathi
SSE/PW/CH,MB DIV.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 25, 2010 9:59 am Back to top

Thanks a lot alll the respective Engineers , I have gain much more from the suggestions. As per respected Agarawal sir....at site when column 45 & 48 is asked to be filled for the same parameters which actually required for investigation,all mech. team along with officers do not support for measurement and the is left blank.Safety officers are also do not support for recarding the required data.Why these columns are not enlarged by the higher officials to get enough data at site in support of P.Way engineers.If any such papers issued and available pl. give reference
            
            
            
- Rajendra Tripathi SE/PW/RAC ... 25-03-10

Anil Patel
Sr DEN/Coord/CKP

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 26, 2010 10:56 pm Back to top

I have had two PWIs removed from service in last one year in my division. My personal experience is that honesty doesn't pay. But hiding facts from others often results in us hiding it from ourselves or believing in our own false arguments.

We need to be fairly honest but since the world is not fair lets be unfair and pinpoint faults of others to balance out the blame game.

Knowledge, evidence gathering, some rigid spine and lots of luck is required to to mitigate the hardships resulting out of derailments. In my division whenever I have seen a track defect I have felt that they could have been avoided by timely action by field engineers.

But detail inspection appears to be lacking in field. Too much of contractual works and too little supervisors on hand is the problem. We need more PWIs and less gangmens.
            
            
            
- Anil Patel Sr DEN/Coord/CKP ... 26-03-10

R. Gobinath
AXEN/TMC/PALGHAT

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 27, 2010 2:04 pm Back to top

Sir, Removal of PWIs due to derailments is painfull. This discourages the new entrants to stay in this profession.
Almost all other departments related with running of trains have their working in a check list form w.r.t working timings and accordingly vaccancies are being filled up.
1.Without a S.M & Pointsmen ,operating department will not run the train
2.with shortage of C&W inspectors,they may not give fit certificate to Rolling stock.if at all forced ,they will be sheltered with NO or very minor penalty.
3.Commercial department in-charge of uneven loading ,they don't know about the punishment due to derailment
4.Signal staff already they are running their survival with rich infrastructure like Vehicles and sufficient staff strength duly maintaining their departmental secrets ( right from top to bottom)

We also should have a check list form of working with demarcated duties entrusted to sufficient field Engineers.
owning the P.Way asset as a owner and struggling to run in the "Neck to Neck Race",either will evolve in fatigue or failing to reach the destination.
Paralelly Our field Engineers are to be given with training on Rolling stock Engineering ,Signal Enginering in brief such that they are able to defend their positions and also help their cadre men.
At this juncture, [u:219d0d546f][b:219d0d546f]I request IRICEN to upload the Signal Engineering Manual also, as done in the case of Wagon Maintenance Manual.[/b:219d0d546f][/u:219d0d546f]

ANAND KUMAR GARG
SSE(WORKS)/UMB DIV

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 30, 2010 8:11 pm Back to top

sir,I am unable to find RDSO letter no.CRA 501 DT 29/4/83.pl. guide how this letter could be downloaded.
            
            
            
- ANAND KUMAR GARG JE-I WORKS ... 30-03-10

S. RAVI
XEN/works/CN/MS (Retired)

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 31, 2010 9:25 am Back to top

Signal Engineering Manual Part - I
Signal Engineering Manual Part - II are available in the following links


http://10.1.10.21/railnet/deptts/FinanceCode/SEM-I/main%20page.htm
http://10.1.10.21/railnet/deptts/FinanceCode/SEM-II/main%20page.htm
            
            
            
- S. RAVI XEN/works/CN/MS ... 31-03-10

Nilmani .
Prof. Track

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 31, 2010 11:06 am Back to top

RDSO Lr No CRA 501 is available on IRICEN website

Anil Patel
Sr DEN/Coord/CKP

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 01, 2010 8:53 am Back to top

Dear Gobinath,

We are pained as well. When a passenger train is involved then these things happen.

What is really surprising is that the Railway Board's guidelines for minimum scale of punishment for D&A for derailment cases is very stiff for P Way staff in comparison to other department. Although the first para of the yardstick clearly spells out the fact to be considered before imposing a punishment but due to witch hunting tactics of safety departments DA's are forced to follow the norms blindly.

In case people do not have a copy of this letter it can be seen in my shared folder.

Safety depts currently are working as derailment investigation, monitoring and punishment imposition bossing dept. Their role in prevention and promotion of safe working is not visible in field.

R. Gobinath
AXEN/TMC/PALGHAT

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 01, 2010 12:03 pm Back to top

Sir,
The punishments to Civil Engg staff D & S catagory (Direct & Secondary ) responsibilities are seems to be severe comparing with the staff of operating,S&T,Mechl and Electrical.
Besides the above we have to derive the limitations on Track parameters w.r.t to type of Loco/Rolling stock on their relevant speed ranges,which has to be got approved. Without such stingent guidelines ,punishing the hard working cadre upto "Removal" is clear discremination,Wheras such limitations (Safety Tolerances/Rejection Limits) stipulated for other departments were dealt with lighter Punishments.
Our idea is not to mind much about increasing other department staff's punishment,but stringent guide lines on "safety tolerances ' to field P.Way staff is a "MUST" instead of spoiling their Reputation and life.After serving 10 Years in P.Way,he almost forget about remaining of Civil Engg.subjects .At this stage ,Removing them from Railway Service is almost parlysing their further life.
Why RDSO is not to be involved in this Great job?
Also Safety department should follow up with RDSO on this issue .
[u:39e2d07b4a][b:39e2d07b4a]AS OUR OWN EFFORT[/b:39e2d07b4a][/u:39e2d07b4a]
I sincerely Request for consideration of a scheme at IRICEN.Under this all Trainees of IRSE probationers (as they will have knowledge fresh on Engineering Mechanics & Physics ) has to join with Promotee officers of Integrated course,having rich field experience (one each in a set) ,to submitt one additional project on "Rail-Wheel Dynamics" of various Locos/Rolling stocks on Straight & curved Tracks. This situation will lead towards acheiving of Safety Tolerances for Track parameters by following Geometrical & stress analysis( on running various Locos/Rolling stocks over Straight & curved Tracks).
Copies of Good project works may be sent to RDSO & Rly Bd for their suggestions and guidances.



Rajendra Tripathi
SSE/PW/CH,MB DIV.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 01, 2010 6:21 pm Back to top

Sir,Links for SEM -I & II are not available . Pl. give any other link if available.Also if any link for C&W maintenance manual is available , pl.arrange.
Thanks a lot to all hon'ble Engrs for guidelines.
            
            
            
- Rajendra Tripathi SE/PW/RAC ... 01-04-10
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